What Did Karol Wojtyla Believe?


Who is Karol Wojtyla? He was known as Pope John Paul II. This pope devoted his entire reign as pope to the Virgin Mary. He even gave her the credit for saving his life in 1981 during an assasination attempt.

His famous phrase “Totus Tuus” (Latin for All Yours) described his devotion to Mary. He wrote in his last will and testament

“…this moment too I place into the hands of the Mother of My Master: Totus Tuus. In the same maternal hands I place All those with whom my life and vocation are bound. Into these Hands I leave above all the Church, and also my Nation and all humanity.” Then, a little later in the document he writes, “I feel myself totally in the Hands of God – and I remain continually at the disposition of my Lord, entrusting myself to Him and to His Immaculate Mother (Totus Tuus).”

Pope John Paul II, believed that Mary was the co-redeemer with Christ! On his casket is a large “M” engraved under the arm of the Cross of Christ. He taught that “Baptism is necessary for salvation in fact or at least in intention, by which men and women are freed from their sins and are reborn as children of God, and configured to Christ…” (Canon 849, Code of Canon Law by the authority of Pope John Paul II).

This is taken from the Vatican’s own website promoting the praying to Mary via the rosary:

The Rosary mystically transports us to Mary’s side as she is busy watching over the human growth of Christ in the home of Nazareth. This enables her to train us and to mold us with the same care, until Christ is “fully formed” in us (cf. Gal 4:19). This role of Mary, totally grounded in that of Christ and radically subordinated to it, “in no way obscures or diminishes the unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power”.(20) This is the luminous principle expressed by the Second Vatican Council which I have so powerfully experienced in my own life and have made the basis of my episcopal motto: Totus Tuus.(21) The motto is of course inspired by the teaching of Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, who explained in the following words Mary’s role in the process of our configuration to Christ: “Our entire perfection consists in being conformed, united and consecrated to Jesus Christ. Hence the most perfect of all devotions is undoubtedly that which conforms, unites and consecrates us most perfectly to Jesus Christ. Now, since Mary is of all creatures the one most conformed to Jesus Christ, it follows that among all devotions that which most consecrates and conforms a soul to our Lord is devotion to Mary, his Holy Mother, and that the more a soul is consecrated to her the more will it be consecrated to Jesus Christ”.(22) Never as in the Rosary do the life of Jesus and that of Mary appear so deeply joined. Mary lives only in Christ and for Christ!Praying to Christ with Mary

16. Jesus invited us to turn to God with insistence and the confidence that we will be heard: “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you” (Mt 7:7). The basis for this power of prayer is the goodness of the Father, but also the mediation of Christ himself (cf. 1Jn 2:1) and the working of the Holy Spirit who “intercedes for us” according to the will of God (cf. Rom 8:26-27). For “we do not know how to pray as we ought” (Rom 8:26), and at times we are not heard “because we ask wrongly” (cf. Jas 4:2-3).

In support of the prayer which Christ and the Spirit cause to rise in our hearts, Mary intervenes with her maternal intercession. “The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary”.(23) If Jesus, the one Mediator, is the Way of our prayer, then Mary, his purest and most transparent reflection, shows us the Way. “Beginning with Mary’s unique cooperation with the working of the Holy Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the Holy Mother of God, centering it on the person of Christ manifested in his mysteries”.(24) At the wedding of Cana the Gospel clearly shows the power of Mary’s intercession as she makes known to Jesus the needs of others: “They have no wine” (Jn 2:3).

The Rosary is both meditation and supplication. Insistent prayer to the Mother of God is based on confidence that her maternal intercession can obtain all things from the heart of her Son. She is “all-powerful by grace”, to use the bold expression, which needs to be properly understood, of Blessed Bartolo Longo in his Supplication to Our Lady.(25) This is a conviction which, beginning with the Gospel, has grown ever more firm in the experience of the Christian people. The supreme poet Dante expresses it marvellously in the lines sung by Saint Bernard: “Lady, thou art so great and so powerful, that whoever desires grace yet does not turn to thee, would have his desire fly without wings”.(26) When in the Rosary we plead with Mary, the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit (cf. Lk 1:35), she intercedes for us before the Father who filled her with grace and before the Son born of her womb, praying with us and for us.

Do you see where the Scriptures are twisted by the catholic church? At the bottom of this particular page (in the footnotes), it states:

(11) It is well-known and bears repeating that private revelations are not the same as public revelation, which is binding on the whole Church. It is the task of the Magisterium to discern and recognize the authenticity and value of private revelations for the piety of the faithful.

Furthermore, it is believed that

8. It would be impossible to name all the many Saints who discovered in the Rosary a genuine path to growth in holiness. We need but mention Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort, the author of an excellent work on the Rosary,(12) and, closer to ourselves, Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, whom I recently had the joy of canonizing. As a true apostle of the Rosary, Blessed Bartolo Longo had a special charism. His path to holiness rested on an inspiration heard in the depths of his heart: “Whoever spreads the Rosary is saved!”.(13) As a result, he felt called to build a Church dedicated to Our Lady of the Holy Rosary in Pompei, against the background of the ruins of the ancient city, which scarcely heard the proclamation of Christ before being buried in 79 A.D. during an eruption of Mount Vesuvius, only to emerge centuries later from its ashes as a witness to the lights and shadows of classical civilization. By his whole life’s work and especially by the practice of the “Fifteen Saturdays”, Bartolo Longo promoted the Christocentric and contemplative heart of the Rosary, and received great encouragement and support from Leo XIII, the “Pope of the Rosary”.

Furthermore, this pope, along with others, have stated numerous times that Mary is co-redeemer with Christ. This is outright heresy!

Pope Paul II has referred to Mary by the title “Co-redemptrix” in his teachings. For example, in 1985, in Guayaquil, Ecuador, the pope said: “Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity. … In fact Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son” (Inside the Vatican, July 1997, p. 23).

In April 9, 1997, the pope said: “Mary … co-operated during the event itself [the crucifixion] and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all minkind. In union with Christ and in submission to Him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity. … In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’, the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us trun to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs” (Vatican Information Service).

On July 30, 1997, the pope said: “As the Mother of all the Lord’s disciples, May offers her intercession and aid to all who journey towards the fullness of the Lord’s Kingdom. As the Bride and Temple of the Holy Spirit, she encourages us to imitate her openness to the workings of the Spirit and to live in constant, loving communion with the Blessed Trinity.”

In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer), published March 25, 1987, pope John Paul referred to Mary as “Mediatrix” three times, and as “Advocate” twice. The third section is dedicated to the theme of “Maternal Mediation.”

He is not the only pope who has pushed this heresy. Pius XI gave the title Co-redemptrix to Mary. The Vatican Councils have also given the title of Co-Redeemer to Mary. Vatican Council II, which was held in the mid-1960s, also referred to Mary as Mediator and Advocate. Note the following citation:

“Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching …’ death through Eve, life through Mary.’ This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is involved in the Church under the titles Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

Since the catholics believe that the Bible, church traditions and magisteriums work together for their doctrine, then what do they do with the Bible when the church’s traditions and the popes and councils have directly contradicted the Word of God? The catholic church is taking its members straight to the pits of hell with its heretical teachings!!! 😦 This is very sad! My heart aches for the lost catholic who is depending on their church to get them into heaven and the Word says otherwise!

Please, if you are a catholic reading this, go to the tab above on Salvation. Read the tab For the Catholic and see the heresies you are being taught. God’s Word is final, my friend! Please free yourself from the bondage of the catholic church. You will be free! (Joh 8:36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I do not write to hurt or to upset you but to warn you that you think you are on the right path but it is wrong! (Pro 14:12) There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. (Pro 16:25) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. I know catholicism seems right to you because it is the largest religion in the world. However, when compared to the Bible, many of its doctrines are anti-Bible.

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About Kate

I'm married to my best friend, John. We have two sons, Aaron (in the Army) and Adam (in the Marines).
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50 Responses to What Did Karol Wojtyla Believe?

  1. timglass says:

    You said: “Since the catholics believe that the Bible, church traditions and magisteriums work together for their doctrine, then what do they do with the Bible when the church’s traditions and the popes and councils have directly contradicted the Word of God?”

    As a recently converted Catholic from the Baptist tradition, I can say that it is the Protestant interpretation of Sacred Scripture that brings about the seeming contradiction that you mention.

    One to think about, that I was shown, was while Jesus was on the cross, and He says to John, “Woman, behold thy son” and “Son behold your mother” the first interpretation is simple and true. Jesus gives Mary to John to take care of. Let us go a bit deeper: Why would Jesus do this if He had brothers (or Mary’s other son’s) to do this? That’s because she didn’t.

    On the spiritual intrpretation we see Mary becoming the Mother of all the “beloved disciples.”

    Without understanding the Communion of the Saints professed in the Apostles Creed it is hard to grasp the concept. Look at The wonderful book of Hebrews in chapter 11 and 12. 12:1 states that “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses” of thoes mentioned in the previous chapter. These witness live with God now in heaven, for God is not a God of the dead but of the living.

    Praying to Mary (or any saint) is not the end. I don’t pray to her to answer my prayer. I ask her to intercede for me, to pray for me. Just as I ask my wife or my friend to pray for me. The biggest difference is of course, those who have died in Christ, are with Him already. Can they not whisper my request right into His ear?

    I’m not out to try to convert you, I just want you to realize where us Catholics are coming from.

    All Catholic practices are biblical, it just depends on your interpretation.

    God bless you through our Lord Jesus Christ and may we all come to unity as one Body for the glory of God.

    In the love of Christ,
    Tim

  2. Tim says:

    Mrs Kate,

    Good Post! It is sad that many good people have fallen into this cult know as Roman Catholic Church. Keep posting truth no matter the opposition. I pray this young man might see the truth before it is too late for him God Bless You

    Bro Tim

  3. maranatha777p says:

    Tim, the Bible says
    (2Pe 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2Pe 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    The Holy Spirit is the one that interprets God’s Word to the believer because the Spirit is given to the believer at the new birth. It is not my interpetation, Tim, but God’s interpretation given to me by the Holy Spirit. At least I turn to the Word of God to prove my beliefs. You have to turn to the teachings of the catholic church and its teachings are NOT biblical. Praying TO Mary is in direct contradiction of the Bible. Purgatory does not exist – if it did, then Jesus Christ’s shed blood on the cross was not sufficient to cleanse you from sin. Who will you obey?

  4. timglass says:

    So, the Holy Spirit interprates differently for Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and Catholics. Like I said yesterday, I used to be Baptist-until I was lead by the Holy Spirit to seek the Church that HE created from the time of Christ.

    Since it was the Holy Spirit that guided the Catholic Bishops to canonize the NewTestament, the Catholic Church contains no contradictions. It wasn’t until the Reformation that “certian teachings” were considered contradictory.

    Tell me, If Luther was right then why aren’t there just Catholics and Lutherans? Look into the history, the same things that Agustine taught in the 300’S are still taught in the Catholic Church today.

    The Catholic tradition goes back 2000 years…Baptist only go as far back as 500. I’ll take Jesus’ word that “the gates of hell” wouldn’t prevail against His Church.

    Thanks for your concern for my soul though, but it’s in Jesus’ hands.

    And I’ll obey Jesus…and the Church he established.

  5. maranatha777p says:

    Tim,

    The differences in the beliefs of the various “Christian” religions shows that mankind is human and able to corrupt the Word of God. The fact that you were a baptist before doesn’t mean anything. When one is not born again by the Spirit of God, one cannot understand the Bible. Again, you have shown that you will obey your church OVER the Word of God. You say that you’ll obey Jesus, then why do you pray to Mary when Jesus taught us to pray to His Father and the Word says to pray in His name? You say you will obey Jesus, then why do you pray to saints and have graven images in your home and church? If you will obey Jesus then why do you agree to allow Him to be sacrificed over and over in the daily mass when the Word says that His sacrifice was once for all and to repeatedly do so brings shame to His Name? No, Tim, you are obeying the catholic church and you have been duped. Obey God rather than man, the Word says.

  6. Jerry Bouey says:

    One to think about, that I was shown, was while Jesus was on the cross, and He says to John, “Woman, behold thy son” and “Son behold your mother” the first interpretation is simple and true. Jesus gives Mary to John to take care of. Let us go a bit deeper: Why would Jesus do this if He had brothers (or Mary’s other son’s) to do this? That’s because she didn’t.

    Because the NT teaches that Jesus’ brethren were not believers until after the resurrection. It makes sense that Jesus would not put his mother in the care of an unbeliever.

    On the spiritual intrpretation we see Mary becoming the Mother of all the “beloved disciples.”

    We certainly don’t SEE that in the Bible anywhere – someone made that up and then pretended it was truth. Someone sold you a false bill of goods, Tim.

  7. timglass says:

    So you, as a Christian, are saying that your interpretation of the word is correct and that my interpretation as a Christian is wrong. How can this be if the Holy Spirit interprates for the believer? Now since you say I’ve been duped, are you insinuating that I’m not a Christian? If so, then I must end my conversation with you, for I didn’t make that judgement on you. I say this, for Jesus warned John in Luke 9:50 “he that is not against us is for us” just because I’m not Protestant doesn’t mean I’m not Christian.

    I will never deny or contradict the word of God because I love Jesus, my Savior. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit alone are to be worshipped. And They alone ARE who I worship.

    The Holy Trinity, which by the way, isn’t defined in the Bible, but was defined by the Catholic Bishops in the Councils in Nicaea and Constantinople in the years 325 and 381.

    The Bible doesn’t define the incarnation either. It again was the Catholic Church Bishops at the Council of Ephesus that define Christ as 100% God and 100% man. The Holy Spirit lead the Catholic Church then, to define these doctrines and He leads the Catholic Church now, to continue to lead mankind to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

    Your remark about not knowing the bible, because I don’t have the Spirit, is again based on your own interpretation of who you think I am. I would invite you to read some of my studies at ” a word on The Word”. You don’t have to agree with me, but as a disciple of Christ, and a teacher of His word I know that I will be held to a greater judgement (James 3:1). So I strive to teach the truth as the Spirit leads me.

    Lastly, as Paul states to Timothy in 1 Timothy 3 verse 15 that the Church of the living God is the “pillar and foundation of the truth.” I wonder why Paul would say the Church was the pillar and foundation of the truth and not scripture? Please don’t misunderstand me, the Bible is the word of God, and the Church is the Church of God. Why do you try to seperate what God had placed together.

    So as I said yesterday, I will obey God’s Word and God’s Church.

    I trust you worshipped in Spirit and Truth today. I did as well.

    Grace and peace to you and your family.

  8. maranatha777p says:

    Sir, I cannot say whether you are a born-again believer or not. That is up to you and God. But I can tell you what God’s Word has revealed to me through His Holy Spirit. I do not use any “Baptist” preacher’s words or traditions to back up anything I say. However, you use tradition and magisterium to back up what you believe.

    I can truly say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that when I die I am going to Heaven. Can you truly say this? If so, can you go immediately after you die or do you have to pass through purgatory?

    You said: The Bible doesn’t define the incarnation either. It again was the Catholic Church Bishops at the Council of Ephesus that define Christ as 100% God and 100% man. The Holy Spirit lead the Catholic Church then, to define these doctrines and He leads the Catholic Church now, to continue to lead mankind to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

    What? Are you serious? (Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (Joh 1:2) The same was in the beginning with God. (Joh 1:14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    You need to read your Bible. The Bible stated that Christ was God in the flesh. It’s in the Word of God, Tim. No need to make it dogma. What’s disturbing are the dogmas that AREN’T in the Word: Purgatory, Praying to Mary, Praying to the Saints, Confession to a priest. Tim, these are not in the Word of God. When you stand before God, you will have to give an account as to why you believed things that He did not put in His Word!

    You said: The Holy Trinity, which by the way, isn’t defined in the Bible, but was defined by the Catholic Bishops in the Councils in Nicaea and Constantinople in the years 325 and 381

    The Holy Trinity is most certainly defined in the Holy Bible (1 John 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    and

    (Mat 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (Mat 3:17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    What more do you need? Gen. 1:26 even states “Let us make man…”

    You said: I wonder why Paul would say the Church was the pillar and foundation of the truth and not scripture? Please don’t misunderstand me, the Bible is the word of God, and the Church is the Church of God. Why do you try to seperate what God had placed together.

    I do not separate the two – Christ formed the church and Christ is the Word (John 1:1). The pillar and foundation of the Church is the Gospel of Jesus Christ with Christ being the chief cornerstone. (1 Cor 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    But you, Sir, have placed greater emphasis on the “church” over God’s Word. This cannot be so. God’s Word is Supreme and is our final authority. Not man … not the pope. Your “church” puts emphasis on teachings that are not in the Bible.

    The born-again believer who believes man’s words, doctrines, and traditions instead of God’s Word will be held accountable. That’s for every single denomination out there. That’s for every Baptist out there also. Tim, I can’t tell if you are saved or not. That’s not up to me but up to you and God. However, every church building that I have ever been in has been made up of sinners in need of salvation. We are all sinners in need of God’s grace through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Right through the Scriptures justification is seen to be necessary for salvation and in the New Testament it is the major theme of the Apostles. However, the catholic church says the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation and that justification before God is given through the sacrament of Baptism. The catholic church officially teaches,

    “Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy.” And “The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification . . . .” (paragraphs 1992 and 1266 of their catechism)

    But, Tim, the Bible defines justification in (2 Cor 5:21) For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. The Lord took on all our sins (was made to be sin for us) yet as the substitute for the believer’s sin, He took on Himself the wrath of God for our sin. There is no need to go to purgatory – Christ paid it all. Jesus was “made sin” because the sins of all of His people were transferred to Him, and thus, the believer is made “the righteousness of God in Him”. So, Tim, our Advocate Jesus Christ has the legal right to stand before His Father and state that those who accept His work of the cross can now legally stand “in Christ” and we no longer have to pay the penalty. Yet your church teaches otherwise. Your church says that baptism through the church is what saves you.

    That is heresy at best.

  9. timglass says:

    Yes mam, I’m serious!

    It’s real easy to sit here in the 21st century and say…”the Bible says this and the Bible says that”. The truth is that when these dogmas were defined(and no they are NOT defined in scripture, only alluded to example: It doesn’t say Jesus was 100% God and 100% man) there was not a New Testament. There were different scrolls at different Catholic Churches, and heresies abounded. Do you not know your history?

    By the grace of God I will be in heaven with Him when I die. And whether there is a purgatory or not is not a salvific issue. For the Church teaches that we are saved if we are in the state of purgation, we are only being cleansed of the sin we refused or couldn’t let go of.

    Only the Trinity and the Virgin birth, sinless life, death burial, resurrection and second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ are salvific issues.

    Your way of thinking was always taught as heresy for 1530+ years…..until the Rebellion.

    Again you are wrong to say I place greater emphasis on the Church than the Word. They work together like the Body of Christ did, before it was severed in the Rebellion.

    And please do not just quote “part” of a sentence in the Cathechism to make your point…. Paragraph 1992 states in full:

    Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life
    But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

    And 1266 states in full:

    The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

    enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;

    giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;

    allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.

    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

    It is ALL a work of the Trinity. Baptism, justification, salvation, the Holy Eucharist. We are only the benefiters.

    The Bible also defines justification as:
    James 2:24, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

    And lastly mam, Peter writes in his first letter (verse 5) these words: “Likewise, you younger members, BE SUBJECT TO THE PRESBYTERS. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.” He didn’t say to the word of God alone. The Bible says that nowhere.

    Thank you, but I DO read my bible. I even keep it in context, historically as we as spiritually.

    Maybe it is you who are afraid of the account you will have to give God at the judgement.

    Peace and love from our God and Father of our Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit who all reign together as One.

  10. maranatha777p says:

    (Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    I will not continue to write to you; I doubt that you will listen. You are on most dangerous ground. The simple truth is just as the Lord spoke to the Pharisees “I said therefore unto you that you shall die in your sins if you believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

    Since you seem intent on substituting faith in the Catholic Church for faith in the Lord of Glory, you likewise will deny in practice His Person.

    The Scripture warns a believer to “avoid foolish disputes…”. (Titus 3:9). Such I deem what you have written to me. I will not be writing to you again, unless you repent of rationalizations to uphold the Traditions that deny the absolute truth of the Lord’s written Word.

    Christ Jesus the Lord declared, “…the scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35) There I stand!

  11. Amber says:

    The Holy Spirit is the one that interprets God’s Word to the believer because the Spirit is given to the believer at the new birth. It is not my interpetation, Tim, but God’s interpretation given to me by the Holy Spirit.

    So, the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of God’s word? Where does it say that in the Bible?

    How do you know that you’re understanding Scripture the way the Holy Spirit intends you to understand it?

  12. maranatha777p says:

    (1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    (Joh 14:26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    (Heb 10:15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (Heb 10:16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    (1Pe 1:12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    (2Pe 1:21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    (1Jn 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    As the above verse, 1 John 2:27 states, the Holy Spirit resides within me – and I do not need anyone to teach me because this same Holy Spirit will teach me ALL things AND it will be truth AND it won’t be a lie. Now, THAT, is a promise!!!

  13. Amber says:

    Again, how do you know that you’re understanding Scripture the way the Holy Spirit intends you to understand it, especially if your understanding differs from that of another Bible Christian, who also says the Holy Spirit is teaching them?

  14. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, I know that I am interpreting correctly because Jesus promised me the Holy Spirit when I was born again. I am sealed forever, the Word says. I have the Holy Spirit within me and He is the One that does the interpreting. There are differing view points amongst born-again believers because we are all sinners saved by grace and we are not perfect.

    He also prays on my behalf when I don’t know how to pray for a certain situation. Every true born again believer will have this same Holy Spirit, Amber. Every true born again believer will interpret God’s Word the same way.

    Those who don’t understand this don’t understand because they do not possess the Holy Spirit. Jesus constantly confronted the Pharisees with this same type of problem. They knew the Law – in fact, to be a Pharisee, one had to MEMORIZE the first five books of the Old Testament. No one knew the Law better than them. However, they did not possess the Holy Spirit and they could not understand what Christ was saying:

    (Mat 23:23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    (Mat 23:24) Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

    (Mat 23:25) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    (Mat 23:26) Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

    (Mat 23:27) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.

    (Mat 23:28) Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

    (Mat 23:29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

    (Mat 23:30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    (Mat 23:31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

    (Mat 23:32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    (Mat 23:33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    (Mat 23:34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    (Mat 23:35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    (Mat 23:38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    Christ was adament here – he kept calling them hypocrites. They knew so much yet they were not saved. It’s the power of the Holy Spirit which we possess. This same Holy Spirit gives us peace and security in our salvation – in our position.

    Possessing the Holy Spirit is what separates the born again believer from the unsaved. We are not left to every wind of doctrine but we have Him to guide us and direct us.

    (Jas 1:5) If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

    Why would God promise me wisdom through His Word if He couldn’t come through with that promise?

  15. jipmeister says:

    I just want to ask this in regard to the following statement –

    your words –

    “Amber, I know that I am interpreting correctly because Jesus promised me the Holy Spirit when I was born again. I am sealed forever, the Word says. I have the Holy Spirit within me and He is the One that does the interpreting. There are differing view points amongst born-again believers because we are all sinners saved by grace and we are not perfect. ”

    This sounds like – I am interpreting correctly because of the Holy Spirit in me and the differing viewpoints are a result of sinful human nature. The logical conclusion from your words would be I am interpreting correctly and anyone who differs is just following their sinful nature and not the Holy Spirit.

    These discussions/debates can get pretty heated and things don’t always come out the way we intend so I’m just asking if that is what you meant by your words? If not could you please clarify what you did mean there?

    “He also prays on my behalf when I don’t know how to pray for a certain situation. Every true born again believer will have this same Holy Spirit, Amber. Every true born again believer will interpret God’s Word the same way. ”

    Again, I’m asking if you intended to say what this statement implies – that anyone whose interpretation differs from yours then they are not a true born again believer? If not yours then if their interpretation differs from whose?

    I’m sincerely asking what you meant by those statements because if you meant what it appears to mean then it would seem that you are taking a position of judgement about the condition of the souls of many people and I have the impression that you know enough scripture to know that would truly be on most dangerous ground.

  16. maranatha777p says:

    You said: This sounds like – I am interpreting correctly because of the Holy Spirit in me and the differing viewpoints are a result of sinful human nature. The logical conclusion from your words would be I am interpreting correctly and anyone who differs is just following their sinful nature and not the Holy Spirit.

    What I am saying here is that if ALL born again Christians grew spiritually at the same rate and learned the same doctrines all at the same time, the Holy Spirit would interpret the Scriptures the same way. But we don’t all learn at the same time. We all grow at our own pace. I have read certain Scripture verses and because of my immaturity in the Lord, interpreted “my” own way. But when the Lord dealt with me on that same verse later, I learned what He intended for me to know. I hope that makes more sense.

    However, and I want to emphasize this, in the basic salvation doctrine, there IS no deviation. There IS no different interpretations. God is quite clear that it is salvation through Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross plus nothing! To say that man must go to purgatory to clean him totally to enter Heaven is heresy. To believe this means that Jesus’ precious blood was not enough to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. But the Word is very clear here.

    Yes, Christians are going to have differences of opinions on Scriptures but they should not when it comes to the foundation of the faith of whom the Chief Cornerstone is Jesus Christ and His Gospel is uncompromising.

  17. jipmeister says:

    It is definitely true that salvation is only through Jesus Christ – I definitely do not believe in a works salvation. Neither do I believe in a salvation that requires nothing and bears no evidence. So in that sense I believe that our faith – which is a gift of God not of works – is evidenced by our works – both together. True faith will be evident in the life of a true believer and as there is growth and maturity it will be even more evident. For the sake of clarification I’m not referring exclusively to works like teaching a Sunday school class and volunteering for every committee but rather, and especially, works or fruit such as mercy, compassion, kindness, love etc.

    My understanding of the teaching of purgatory, which I admit is limited, is that it is merely a cleansing of that sinful human nature that we still have on this earth even after salvation. As I understand it, it is not a redemptive kind of thing nor is it confined to restraints of time as we understand it. To me it kind of seems logical since God is PERFECTLY Holy it seems reasonable that the last remnants of that human sinful nature would need to be cleansed away – personally, I would think it’s more of an instantaneous kind of thing ( for those already redeemed) but really either way it would still be a work of God not of man.

    From what I have understood of your comments in this thread specifically regarding salvation I believe that you and I are on the same page – it is of God through Christ. I also think, correct me if I am wrong, that you would also agree that there is evidence of that redemptive work ( of Christ) in the life of the believer through works or fruit. I think what I see as the biggest difference between what you have said and the other commenters have said is in the practice or the “walking out” of that faith.

    If there is agreement especially in the basic and very fundamental doctrines (salvation) of the faith then surely that is substantial enough foundation to accept one another as believers and leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide each of us in walking that out as we grow in faith and maturity.

  18. Amber says:

    So, basically, you’re saying you’ve reached a spiritual maturity that has made your interpretation (or understanding) of Scripture infallible?!

    I believe it’s safe to say that every Christian “believes” he/she is interpreting or understanding Scripture properly, depsite that these interpretations vary from one church to another and even within individuals within these churches. If they all BELIEVE this, and you say that a true born-again Christian is the only one who truly gets it right, how do we know who those “true” born-again Christians are?

    Are we not going against God’s word explicitly when we are so divided in our thinking and theology?

    Phil 2:2
    Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    Romans 15:5-6
    Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Clearly, Christianity is NOT one in mind and mouth today. Why is this? How are we to know who and what to believe when we’re all using the same Bible, claiming our interpretation is better than someone else’s? Did God truly leave us to flounder around with various interpretations, all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit?

    If I tell you I’m led by the Holy Spirit to understand this or that passage, and you say the same, and we have different understandings, what makes your understanding more valid than mine?

    Are you going to tell me that some people who believe they are born-again Christians, really aren’t?

  19. maranatha777p says:

    My understanding of the teaching of purgatory, which I admit is limited, is that it is merely a cleansing of that sinful human nature that we still have on this earth even after salvation. As I understand it, it is not a redemptive kind of thing nor is it confined to restraints of time as we understand it. To me it kind of seems logical since God is PERFECTLY Holy it seems reasonable that the last remnants of that human sinful nature would need to be cleansed away – personally, I would think it’s more of an instantaneous kind of thing ( for those already redeemed) but really either way it would still be a work of God not of man.

    Let the Word of God speak my answer: (1 Jn 1:7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Not just those until we die and then we have to “pay” for them in purgatory. 1 John 1:7 says that ALL our sin has been cleansed by the blood. Christ’s blood covers us and the Father sees only His blood and His payment for our sins – He does not see our own righteousness or lack thereof because Isaiah says our righteousness is as filthy rags. To the catholic, purgatory DOES involve time. In fact, they buy indulgences and have masses said daily for the dead so they can leave purgatory more quickly.

    If there is agreement especially in the basic and very fundamental doctrines (salvation) of the faith then surely that is substantial enough foundation to accept one another as believers and leave it to the Holy Spirit to guide each of us in walking that out as we grow in faith and maturity.

    First off, let me say that if Jane Doe was truly born again and attended a church that was different from mine, yes, I would consider her a sister in Christ. And yes, it would be up to the Holy Spirit to teach her and grow her through His Word. Being a born-again Christian, she would grow spiritually (2 Cor. 5:17) and would display the fruits of the Holy Spirit in her life. She would be zealous in good works (Tit 2:14) and her actions would be a testimony to others of Christ in her life (Matt 5:16).

    As for us agreeing on the fundaments of salvation, it depends what you say the fundamentals of salvation are. For example, the catholic priest says that when a baby is baptized, he is born again. I have heard this with my own ears at a catholic baptism and this terminology is used in the ceremony. Does that mean that the baby is now a born again Christian? The wording of “you must be born again” are the same but their meaning is quite different between the catholic and me.

    A baby cannot repent and be saved because he cannot see himself as a sinner yet. Therefore, this is not the same fundamentals as what I believe. The catholic holds the doctrines of the church over the Bible. The church traditions and magisteriums dictate doctrine and if the Bible contradicts them, they supersede the Bible. That is where I stop.

    If you are a catholic (or any other religion) whose basic fundamentals of the faith deviate from what Christ said in His Word, then we cannot be believers of the same thing. Does that make sense?

    However, if you are a catholic who has had a true born again experience and you are diligently striving to grow in faith and read the Bible, you (like I did) will come to see contradictions between what you are being taught by the church and what God’s Word says. It is then you will have to take a stand. I had to. I realized that there were too many contradictions between what I was taught all my life and what the Bible said. I finally decided to rely on God’s Word over man’s word. That is when I left the catholic church and found a church that preached out of the Word of God. Was I in the right place? I was not sure at first because I was such a new Christian. But as I grew in Christ and in His Word, I found that the preacher was confirming everything I had read – we were of like mind – the Holy Spirit was teaching me the same thing he had already taught the preacher.

    As for the works after salvation – you are absolutely right. James 2:20 says that faith without works is dead. Faith in Christ produces good works and the fruit of the Holy Spirit become evident in our lives. There is change according to 2 Cor. 5:17.

  20. maranatha777p says:

    No, Amber, I have not reached spiritual maturity and I won’t until I reach Heaven.

    However, I DO know that I am going to Heaven, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have the peace of God which surpasses all understanding.

    Do you?

    You hold the teachings of the catholic church over and above God’s own Word. I do not. Those true born-again Christians whose desire is to be obedient to God’s Word will be able to discern heresies when they hear them. Something inside them will warn them of wrong teachings. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. All the born-again Christians that I have ever spoken to in my 28 years of salvation have said the same exact thing, Amber. The Lord has guided us through His Word so that we do not fall prey to wrong doctrine or to every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14).

    (1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    So to the unsaved, the one who has not been born again yet, the Word will seem to have contradictions. They won’t understand and they will think that their intepretation of what they just read is different from someone else’s. That is because they are trying to discern God’s Word with their own flesh, Paul says. But the Spirit of God reveals to the child of God (the born again believer) what God’s will is.

  21. Amber says:

    You didn’t really answer my questions. You just sorta danced around them… and then made attacks and accusations about what you think I believe. And, by the way, there is nothing in the Catholic faith that I can’t back in Scripture, whether explicitly or implicitly, including purgatory. The Holy Spirit, through the study of Scripture, is the very reason I became Catholic after 20+ years as a faithful non-denominational, born-again Christian. If you could even come close to proving Catholic doctrine un-biblical, I’d leave the Catholic Church and never look back. However, the “teachings of the catholic church” ARE God’s Word. Scripture tells us he established a (singular) church and that the church has final authority on matters of dispute.

    Mt 18:17 (KJV)
    And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (Why doesn’t this passage say, if he shall neglect to hear them, look it up in Scripture?)

    He also tells us that the church (what?!?! not the Bible?!?!) is the pillar and ground of the truth:

    1 Tim 3:15
    But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

    Are you going to tell me that, as a Catholic, I am not right in listening to the Church? Not listening to the Church would directly contradict God’s Word and his explicit instruction to me as a Christian.

    But back to the issue at hand… There are those who believe they ARE born again, and have different interpretations from those who ALSO believe they are born again… Are you saying that some who believe they are saved, really aren’t?

  22. Amber says:

    One thing I want to make clear. For a Catholic, it’s not the Church OR Scripture. It’s the Church AND Scripture. We do not accept one at the expense of the other. To do so, would be un-biblical and not logical either.

    That would be like a company running strictly by a book instead of looking also at history, economy, successes, failures, circumstances, financial stability, etc. The book is useful only when read in context… this means knowing how the people at the time the book was written also understood it.

  23. maranatha777p says:

    I didn’t attack you, Amber. You cannot prove to me in Scriptures that God commands you to pray to Mary. If you can, do so. Amber, I was raised catholic and was a devout catholic until I was 25. There is nothing you can tell me about the catholic church that I don’t already know.

    You believe that every reference to the “church” in God’s Word has to be the catholic church. I do not believe that in the least. I believe it to be the Church formed by Jesus Christ comprised of born again believers. Those whose sins have been covered by His precious blood.

    Christ Himself said that (Luk 11:17) But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. So you are telling me that whatever the church has final authority over matters even though they contradict the Word of God? Jesus calls that a house divided and it will fall. The catholic church’s leaders (magisteriums) and traditions supersede God’s Word in many areas. Praying to Mary and declaring that she is Mediatrix and Helper, etc. are not in God’s Word. These titles are those given the Saviour and the Saviour alone!

    Since the Bible contradicts the teachings of Mary that the catholic church upholds, where do you, Amber, draw the line? I don’t need to prove the Gospel to you – it is in God’s Holy Word. However, you, Amber, need to prove to me where it says in God’s Word the dogmas of the church regarding Mary. It is not in God’s Word but yet you choose to believe the church magisterium and traditions over what the Bible says.

    (Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. The catholic church teaches that it is by baptism and the sacraments that one can be saved and only if you are a catholic. This is in their catechism, which I taught. That is works based religion. You must do this in order to be saved. But Paul tells us that it is bey God’s grace, a GIFT, that we are saved and NOT anything of our own doing.

    Amber, I can only speak of my own salvation. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am going to Heaven. I have that 100% complete peace. Do you? You didn’t answer that question. You skirted around that one. Amber, the Bible says (Php 4:7) And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. When I was born again, I received this peace that Paul talks about. At that moment I was saved, I received this peace and my burdens were removed. Christ gave me the rest that He promised:

    (Mat 11:28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

    (Mat 11:29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

  24. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, the catholic catechism states:

    “It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.” (Pg. 29, #95)

    Find me one Scripture which says that salvation can be found in the church or in tradition? I can give you verse after verse which states that salvation is founded in the Word:

    (Psa 119:41) VAU. Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word.

    (Psa 119:81) CAPH. My soul fainteth for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

    (Psa 119:123) Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness.

    (Act 13:26) Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

    (Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    (Eph 6:17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

  25. Amber says:

    Again, you’re not answering my question. Once we finish the topic at hand, I can address the issue you have with Mary, baptism, purgatory or whatever one at a time… until then, it makes no sense to throw in a million avenues of discussion all at once. In fact, it serves only to evade the question you keep dodging.

    But in answer to your question as to whether or not I have assurance of salvation:

    I believe I have been saved (Titus 3:5), I am being saved (1 Peter 1:9) and I will be saved provided I continue in His goodness and persevere to the end (Mt 10:22). Or as Paul instructed, I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). Salvation is not a one-time event, but a way of life, according to Scripture, and, if I turn from God in sin, I could be cut off (Rom 11:22). I’d prefer to err on the side of humility and say if I am not currently in a state of being saved, I hope God will lead me there. If I am already there, I pray that I will be given the grace to remain. Every day I am given a choice to turn to God or to sin.

    1 Cor 10:11-12
    Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (Emphasis mine)

    Heb 10:26-27
    For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (WOW – plain as day that the sacrifice for sin is removed if we sin after receiving the knowledge of truth! THIS is why we must repent, not just once and for all, but daily!)

    But, back to my question:
    There are those who believe they ARE born again, and have different interpretations from those who ALSO believe they are born again… Are you saying that some who believe they are saved, really aren’t? Yes or no?

  26. maranatha777p says:

    There are those who believe they ARE born again, and have different interpretations from those who ALSO believe they are born again… Are you saying that some who believe they are saved, really aren’t? Yes or no?

    Yes, I believe that there are some who say they are saved but truly are not but only because Jesus said there would be some who claim they are and are not:

    (Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    (Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    (Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These professors actually prophesied, cast out demons and did many wonderful works in Jesus’ name, yet Jesus Himself says they were not saved.

    (Mat 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

    I hope God will lead me there.

    You have a hope so salvation. (1Jn 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    You either have it or you don’t. You can KNOW that you have it if you are born again. Paul was not referring to working AT salvation but to PROVE your salvation THROUGH your works. To say that you can have something to do with your own salvation through works is a contradiction of Eph. 2:8-9. God will not contradict Himself, Amber.

    Of course, we must continue to repent but that has nothing to do with the initial salvation experience. We continue to sin even after salvation, Amber.

    (1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    (1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

  27. Amber says:

    Yes, I believe that there are some who say they are saved but truly are not but only because Jesus said there would be some who claim they are and are not:

    So, these people that THINK they’re saved, but really aren’t, if you ask them if they’re saved, they will say that they are because they truly think they are? Right?

  28. maranatha777p says:

    So, these people that THINK they’re saved, but really aren’t, if you ask them if they’re saved, they will say that they are because they truly think they are? Right?

    More than likely they will say they are because they prayed a prayer. But their fruit won’t show it. Jesus said that what’s in the heart will come out of our mouths and will produce fruit meet for repentance. (Mat 3:8) Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

    Amber, it is no different than someone claiming to be a catholic to you. Would you believe that they were a catholic? Probably. Just as I would believe that someone is saved if they told me they were. It is not for me to judge. However, as Jesus said, the born again believer will bring forth fruits meet for repentance. You will see a difference in that person’s life.

  29. Amber says:

    Well, I don’t believe it’s very assuring at all if one can believe they are saved when, in fact, they may not be.

    How do you know you’re not among those who think they’re saved, but they’re really not?

  30. jipmeister says:

    I’m going to bow out of this discussion. I appreciate you letting me jump in but I don’t think it would be wise for me to continue.

    I personally don’t appreciate the assumptions you make about my faith and the faith of so many others based on your own past bad experience with the Catholic church.

    The Catholic church does not teach that only baptized Catholics are truly saved nor does it teach obedience to the church over the scriptures. And just for the record the Catholic church IS the church that Christ founded – what other church was there in the first 1500 years after Christ?

    I was only trying to establish some common ground with you in the hope that maybe there could be some sincere dialogue and perhaps some understanding. It certainly hasn’t been my intent to try to convert you back to the Catholic faith.

    Again I’m sorry for whatever you experienced in the Catholic church that has made you look so harshly upon all Catholics but I think it has also blinded you to even being open to seeing any truth – “There is nothing you can tell me about the catholic church that I don’t already know” – that pretty much says it all.

  31. maranatha777p says:

    jipmeister,

    The catholic church DOES teach that baptism. Do you not read the catechism?

    The Catholic church contends that baptism is necessary for salvation:

    “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.” Pg. 320, #1257

    “The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude…” Pg. 320, #1257

    “The faithful are born anew by Baptism…” Pg. 311, #1212

    “Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church…” Pg. 312, #1213

    “Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte ‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, who has become a ‘partaker of the divine nature,’ member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.” Pg. 322, #1265

    “By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.” Pg. 321, #1263 (See pg. 257, #985)

    “All the sacraments are sacred links uniting the faithful with one another and binding them to Jesus Christ, and above all Baptism, the gate by which we enter into the Church.” Pg. 248, #950

    “By his (Christ’s) power he is present in the sacraments so that when anybody baptizes, it is really Christ himself who baptizes.” Pg. 283, #1088

    “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” Pg. 324, #1274

    All I want to do is to open your eyes to the catholic church’s teachings in comarison to the Bible. If you wish to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich, that is up to you. It is sad, but it is up to you.

    Read your catechism and compare it in light with the True Word of God! That is a challenge I pray you will take.

  32. maranatha777p says:

    Might I also add that the catholic church states that there is no salvation outside the catholic church:

    “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: ‘For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.'” Pg. 215, #816

    Here, the 1994 catechism reaffirms the existing teaching of Vatican II, that salvation can be obtained only through the Roman Catholic church. The catechism leaves no doubt that the Catholic church is necessary for salvation:

    “…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” Pg. 224, #846

    Past popes have taught this doctrine, as have previous catechisms and church fathers. Here is but one example…

    On May 7, 2001, Pope John Paul II told 2,000 youth gathered at the Greek-Melkite Cathedral of Damascus that “you cannot be a Christian if you reject the Church founded on Jesus Christ.” (Found from article “Pope Meets with Youth of Various Christian Confessions,” Vatican City, 5/7/01 (VIS) reported by the Catholic Information Network, 5/9/01, N. 86)

  33. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, what you believe and what God’s Word says may be two different things.

    As for me, I know 100% without a doubt that I am saved and going to Heaven when I die. I was born again almost 28 years ago now.

    (Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    (Joh 3:7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

    (1Pe 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    I acknowledged my sins before God and was sincerely remorseful. Furthermore, I repented of my sins. The old life that I lived, I live no more. I use to curse God – I use to steal – I use to lie – I coveted another woman’s husband – I did stole from my employer by coming to work late and not marking my time – I could go on and on but I think you get my point. Those things I gladly left behind.

    As a result of my salvation, I am not “sinless” by any stretch of the imagination but I DO sin less and less every day. That is due to the work of the Holy Spirit which was given to me. It is not for anything that I personally do – other than submit myself to the work of His hand. The difference between those who “say they are saved” and truly are not is repentance, Amber. That’s the key. We are commanded to repent.

    (Act 3:19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Amber, there is a cost to being saved – repentance. It is not merely praying a few words.

    (Mat 19:16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

    (Mat 19:17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    (Mat 19:18) He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    (Mat 19:19) Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    (Mat 19:20) The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    (Mat 19:21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

    (Mat 19:22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    Notice this young man did everything that was commanded of him in the Law but Jesus knew his heart. He knew that his riches were more important to him than accepting the Messiah and being saved… therefore he went away.

    I KNOW that I am saved, Amber. Jesus did not want us flopping around like a fish out of water wondering if we are saved one minute or not the next.

    (1Jn 5:13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    I can KNOW that I have eternal life – God is not a cruel God that leaves something as precious as eternal life unsettled. He gave us the gift of Jesus Christ. I cannot earn a gift. A gift is freely given to someone, like a birthday present. There is nothing I must do to earn a gift – except to take it into my possession. The Word says five times that Jesus is a gift.

    (Joh 4:10) Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    (Act 8:20) But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

    (Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    (1Co 7:7) For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.

    (Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    I don’t have to earn anything. I just have to accept this gift and take it into my possession. I must repent of my sins – turn away from them. That is it. After salvation, my life began to change as 2 Cor. 5:17 promised it would. Those old sins I did – I didn’t want to do them any more. I had a burning desire to read my Bible and to learn as much as I could about my Saviour. I wanted to go to church and be with other born again Christians who believed the Bible and loved serving the Lord. I began to use the talents God gave me for His glory, not for my own. The poetry I wrote prior to salvation had nothing to do with Jesus but the ones I wrote after salvation sure did – and have been ever since.

    There IS a difference between the born again Christian and the one who “claims” he is and isn’t really. I have unbelievable peace inside now. I did not possess that before. The Holy Spirit has produced fruit in my life:

    (Gal 5:22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    (Gal 5:23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    (Eph 5:9) (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

    (Eph 5:10) Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

    The born again Christian will want to know what is acceptable to God. The Word reveals what we need to know and God shows us what His will is.

    Amber, I KNOW I am born again – my life totally changed and I totally did a complete turn. What I was before, I am no more but only because of the work of Christ on the cross. His gift to me was payment for my sin – He paid the penalty for all my sins. They are covered under His precious blood. Being saved does not give me the go ahead to sin all I want and live like hell. That is not the fruit of a born-again Christian. That is why 2 Cor 5:17 says that our lives MUST change. Amber, mine did. I can only speak for me.

  34. Wow. It has taken me two days to read through all this on all my breaks here at work. I will post some of my responses in bits and pieces.

    On the topic of Interpretation let me make a few remarks. The Holy Spirit being the interpreter of the Scriptures is a moot point in light of the fact that both sides of this argument are claiming Salvation and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    “I can interpret because I have the Holy Spirit.”
    “Well so do I…”

    However, the verse “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.” written by PETER in II Peter 1:20 is very valid. Any claim to a doctrine being alluded to but not expressly states by Christ or by the Scripture will be completely dismissed by any rational person.

    I am still speaking to both sides of the argument here so I hope I haven’t made you mad yet. Give me a few more sentences here before I do that…LOL.

    Now let me pay regard to a particular statement that caught my eye that I would like to dispute.

    I believe it was Amber who said, “One thing I want to make clear. For a Catholic, it’s not the Church OR Scripture. It’s the Church AND Scripture. We do not accept one at the expense of the other. To do so, would be un-biblical and not logical either.”

    The Catholic church violates many clear Scriptural teachings and has throughout the past. Let me name a few and I invite your input back on this subject.

    1. Forbidding priests to marry.
    2. The selling of indulgences.
    3. The priest is the only one who can absolve sins
    4. Praying to Mary
    5. Executing Non believers
    6. Sacraments required for salvation
    7. Purgatory
    8. Infant Baptism
    9. Why you believe that you don’t know for sure that you are going to heaven.

    I would like to know your Biblical basis for these practices.

  35. Sorry it took me so long to post. I didn’t really get the chance to do so last night that I had hoped to get.

  36. Amber says:

    maranatha, with all due respect, what you believe and what God’s Word says may also be two different things. Your interpretation or understanding of Scripture is no more valid than mine if we follow your rules for interpreting and understanding Scripture.

    See, I am also born-again. I also have repented and turned from sin. I accepted Jesus in my heart when I was nine years old, had a believer’s baptism and grew up in a Christian household. I grew up loving God and being persecuted by friends because of it. I thought understood the “evils of Catholicism” and tried time and time again to pray people out of the clutches of religion. But, you know what? In my Bible-only churches I saw the lack of unity, the hatred between “Christians”, the arguing over doctrine, the splintering of churches and lives. I became very depressed. And I cried out to God and said, “How are we to know what is true when everyone claims to be following the same God, led by the same Holy Spirit, and there is so much division?” My pastors couldn’t answer my questions and when they did, their answers didn’t agree with one another. Christians everywhere around me lived horrible lives and then put on their pretty face for church on Sunday… Church wasn’t a place of peace. It was rock concert with a motivational speaker… and I couldn’t stand Christianity as I’d seen it anymore. God broke me, he broke my pride and He led me in a direction I fought tooth and nail… INTO the Catholic Church. I studied and prayed on it for hours over several months and tried to put together arguments against the Catholic faith, always finding the Catholic position made more spiritual and logical sense. This is where I have found peace.

    When I attend Church, I no longer hear one man’s opinion of what the Scriptures mean, nor do I hear a few verses plugged into a motivational speech. The entire Mass is from Scripture! When I go to confession, the weight of my sin literally lifts off my shoulders and I feel like I can do anything for God. The grace and love from God I feel is incomparable to what I felt before I became Catholic. I can now look back into Christian history and see that my beliefs now match those of the early Christians… I no longer have to make excuses for Bible passages that don’t fit my theology… because they ALL fit.

    Just because you were raised Catholic, doesn’t mean you were properly taught the faith or even that you had the eyes to see it’s truth. It is astounding to me that in all those years in the Catholic Church you looked upon the crucified Christ and never understood that he died FOR YOU… THAT is the gospel message, my friend, that Christ died for you!

    In your post about yourself you said, “My mother taught me that our parish priest would interpret the Scriptures and would deliver to us what we needed to know during the readings at mass… I do not ever remember hearing the plan of salvation from my parish priest’s lips.”

    First off, isn’t that what you allow your pastor to do for you? Doesn’t he help you understand Scripture? On second thought, if you can understand Scripture solely with the help of the Holy Spirit, why do you even bother going to church and listening to what a pastor has to say? Second, the validity of a faith is not determined by what our parents said to us or even what a priest said to us. There ARE priests who don’t properly teach what the Catholic Church as a whole teaches. Third, the plan of salvation was read to you at Mass all those years through Scripture reading… and it was in plain sight every time you looked at a crucifix. Did you never question who that man was hanging on the cross and why he was there?

    Every Mass has a reading from the Old Testament, a Psalm, a reading from the New Testament and a reading from one of the four gospels… EVERY MASS! Nearly every word spoke in Mass is from Scripture. I never heard even close to that much Scripture being read or spoken in ONE month at my Bible-believing church. EVER.

    The bottom line here is, your knowledge of actual Catholic teaching is next to none… I fully believe that you were truly dissatisfied when you were in the Catholic Church… but I don’t believe for one minute that it was because of the Catholic faith… It can’t be because you simply have no idea what Catholicism actually teaches. Catholic teaching is not based on your understanding or your bad experiences. If you never felt truly forgiven after confession, that was Satan’s work… If YOU were going through the motions without knowing the reasons why… If you were doing it without the knowledge or understanding of the gospel message, THAT is why you were dissatisfied. Catholicism is not meant to be practiced in a works-only fashion. It is meant to be practiced in accord WITH faith (Eph 2:8-10, James 2:14-26) as a result of faith, which you, for whatever reason, did not understand at that time.

    The Eucharist! How could you ever in a million years leave Christ in the Eucharist? The only way anyone could do so is because they don’t know what they’re leaving… This saddens me greatly… as this is exactly what some of the disciples did when Jesus instituted the Eucharist in John 6.

    Look, I don’t doubt that you love God with all your heart and I believe your intentions to “save” Catholics are sincere and with good intentions… Where I have issue is you making a claim against Catholicism when you don’t understand anything beyond cherry-picking and twisting the catechism.

    My next comment will respond to your partial quotes of the catechism above regarding salvation through the church… followed by my treatment of your wrong idea of the Catholic (and Biblical) understanding of the necessity of baptism.

  37. Amber says:

    Salvation through the church?

    CCC 816 “The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains: “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.” (This is only a partial quote of this paragraph…by the way)

    We have to take careful notice here that this says that the “fullness of the means of salvation is obtained”. This is not saying that those outside the Catholic Church are damned.

    I will explain this in more detail after I examine the other one you quoted, except that I’ll provide the FULL quote:

    CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

    Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

    Wouldn’t you agree that the body of Christ is made of up believers who have a saving faith? Is it necessary to be a member of the body of Christ in order to be saved? Absolutely! So, how do we know that the body is the Church? Scripture tells us!

    Colossians 1:18
    And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

    Ephesians 5:29-30
    After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body.

    Romans 12:4-5
    Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

    1 Corinthians 6:15
    Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself?…

    So, I’m sure we can agree that those outside the body of Christ are not saved. And according to Scripture, we know that the body of Christ is the church. Therefore, those outside the “church” are not saved. How is this read in light of the first point that those outside the Catholic Church do not have the “fullness”?

    Those outside the Catholic Church who have a saving faith in Christ are joined to the Catholic Church through baptism and faith, since there is only ONE body of Christ, and are not considered damned.

    The Church spells this out in the catechism:

    CCC 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.”

    I heard a wonderful explanation of this on the radio:

    It’s as if Christ put us all on a big ship (Catholicism) destined for heaven. At some point (1500 years after the time of Christ), some people decided to leave the ship and ride in a raft along-side the ship (Protestants). Everything good they have on the raft, they got from the ship originally (like the Bible!), but they do not have the full benefits of being on the ship (like the sacraments and the Eucharist). However, they are all still destined for heaven!

    Those outside the body of Christ, or the church, are not destined for heaven. But those inside the body of Christ, though they may not be fully united to the Catholic Church, receive God’s grace and forgiveness due to the blood Christ shed on the cross! But, we must remember that we are called to be united: one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:4-6). We must also remember that if Christ established ONE body, and the body is the church, then he only established ONE church. Which church? Look at all the division within Protestantism… How can this be when it is so contrary to Scripture (Rom 16:17, Phil 2:2)? If the church is the “pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)”, which Protestant church fits this? Or could it be the one church that can trace its beginning to the time of Christ?

    Many argue that “the church” is just the invisible body of Christ… believers all over the world regardless of denomination… But this is not a rational characterization of the church.

    The church is not merely an invisible (spiritual only) church but one that is quite visible (Mt 16:18-19, Mt 18:17). A body is a physical thing, just as Christ was a physical being… you cannot separate the body from the spirit (James 2:26)… the physical from the spiritual. If Christ is physical and spiritual, and the body is physical and spiritual, then the Church is physical and spiritual – visible and invisible!

  38. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, if you did not hear as much Scripture in your church as a child as you do now at your catholic church, then you were in the wrong church indeed and I don’t blame you for leaving it.

    You cannot survive without God’s Word… it is our daily bread, our manna. (Luk 4:4) And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    But how can you stay in a church when it teaches things which are against the Word of God? What do you use as your measuring stick when one disagrees with the other?

  39. Amber says:

    You said, “All I want to do is to open your eyes to the Catholic Church’s teachings in comparison to the Bible. If you wish to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich, that is up to you…”

    With all due respect, this is not a very nice statement… we could say the same of you as we present you with the real teachings of the Catholic Church.

    First off, it is the teaching of the Church that those who are not baptized are not automatically damned… This would include those who die for the faith, who are preparing to be baptized or those of other faith traditions, who have a saving faith but do not understand the necessity of baptism:

    CCC 1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

    CCC 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

    CCC 1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” 62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

    CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” 63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

    Of course, all of this is a bit pointless if baptismal regeneration is false. So let’s take a look at what the Bible says about it and what early Christians thought about it.

    CCC 1257: “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.”

    This is true. Jesus said in John 3:5, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

    Additional verses show that baptism is not merely a symbol but that it actually does something.

    1 Peter 3:21
    and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    Acts 2:38
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 22:16
    And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

    In the verse above, what washes sin away if not baptism?

    Romans 6:3-43
    Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

    This does not sound like it’s merely symbolic but that it also raises us from the dead and gives us new life!

    Colossians 2:11-12
    In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

    Titus 3:5
    he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

    1 Corinthians 6:11
    And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    What other “washing” is there other than baptism?

    Hebrews 10:22
    let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

    One more thing to point out here… Matthew 3:16-17 says, “As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’”

    Look at what happened when our Lord was baptized? Heaven was OPENED UP! Do you not think that he was showing us the supernatural, grace-giving importance of this act? Jesus didn’t nee to be baptized… but by doing so, he instituted something he obviously felt was important! Why do we seek to remove that?! It’s actually a very beautiful concept!

    Early Christians also believed in baptismal regeneration. I can quote MANY of them but for the sake of this response, I’ll only use a few. Let me know if you want more.

    Justin Martyr
    “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” ( First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

    Tertullian
    “Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism-which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes-by taking them away from the water!” ( Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

    “Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).

    Cyril of Jerusalem
    “If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
    . . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]” ( Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).

    In addition, Martin Luther even believed in baptismal regeneration.

    In his Large Catechism (1529), Luther writes:

    Expressed in the simplest form, the power, the effect, the benefit, the fruit and the purpose of baptism is to save. No one is baptized that he may become a prince, but, as the words declare [of Mark 16:16], that he may be saved. But to be saved, we know very well, is to be delivered from sin, death, and Satan, and to enter Christ’s kingdom and live forever with him . . . Through the Word, baptism receives the power to become the washing of regeneration, as St. Paul calls it in Titus 3:5 . . . Faith clings to the water and believes it to be baptism which effects pure salvation and life . . .

    When sin and conscience oppress us . . . you may say: It is a fact that I am baptized, but, being baptized, I have the promise that I shall be saved and obtain eternal life for both soul and body . . . Hence, no greater jewel can adorn our body or soul than baptism; for through it perfect holiness and salvation become accessible to us . . .
    (From ed. by Augsburg Publishing House, Minneapolis: 1935, sections 223-224,230, pages 162, 165)

    The Bible makes this claim all over the place. Why is it that Protestants today, or you, deny this? If baptism IS merely a symbol, why would we bother with it at all? And why would Protestants care if it were by immersion or sprinkling like they so often like to debate? I believe that God is very clear on this issue… and it is only in recent times that a symbolic only baptism has been accepted. We’ve replaced something beautifully supernatural from God with a meaningless symbolic act.

    Of course, it also must be understood that without the work of the Holy Spirit through baptism, it would have no saving effect. The water is the symbol of the supernatural act taking place – the washing of sins. The water itself does not save but the work of the Holy Spirit in the act of baptism, which we do in obedience to our Lord, cleanses us of sin and makes us new in Christ. With this, it cannot be forgotten that without the shedding of Christ’s blood on the cross, we would not be saved at all. God’s grace is given to us through baptism because of Christ’s work on the cross.

    CCC 694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit’s action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental sign of new birth: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As “by one Spirit we were all baptized,” so we are also “made to drink of one Spirit.” Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.

    Amen!

  40. Amber says:

    You said, “But how can you stay in a church when it teaches things which are against the Word of God? What do you use as your measuring stick when one disagrees with the other?”

    I have yet to find anything in the Catholic faith that goes against the Word of God. I studied my way into the Church. If I had found any contradictions, I would have been faced only with becoming Jewish or agnostic… Both of which were not options, as they exclude Jesus Christ from the picture… and I know He is the Son of the Most High God.

    But here’s another question. How do you know that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God? Who told you that it was?

  41. maranatha777p says:

    Your catechism is not in line with the Word of God. Only Christ brings salvation – not baptism! The bottom line is that Jesus Christ paid the price in full! “It is finished.” (Jn 19:30) It is done!

    If it is done, then why does the catholic church teach us to keep doing, and doing, and doing. It is never done and you are never sure! You yourself said that it is on-going.

    Psalm 51 said, “Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation.” Joy! Not fear that if you miss mass on Sunday (that is mortal sin according to your catechism), or if you fail to go to confession on Saturday, that you might die and go to hell! What kind of joy is that?

    God will keep me until the day He comes and meets us in the air (1Thess. 4:7, Jude 24)

    Now, that’s GOOD news! That’s JOY!

  42. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, if you have yet to find anything that the catholic church teaches that goes against the Word of God, then answer Nicholas’ questions above.

    How do I KNOW that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God?

    (2 Pet 1:16-21) For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (16) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (17) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (18) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: (19) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (20) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (21)

    Amber, how can you believe that God can create the universe and all things in it but cannot preserve His Word? You limit God if you do not believe He is able to preserve His Word. If you do not believe that the perfect, inerrant Word of God in the Bible exists today, then no wonder you will take what man says over God’s Word.

    (Psa 12:6) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. (Psa 12:7) Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

  43. Amber says:

    You said, “Only Christ brings salvation – not baptism! The bottom line is that Jesus Christ paid the price in full!”

    First off, I never said that Christ didn’t pay the price in full. The necessity of baptism does not take away the fact that baptism is pointless without Christ’s atonement by his death on the cross for us. But you are ignoring the words of God HIMSELF if you say that it is not necessary. I quoted you several verses which prove this FROM the Bible.

    How can you believe that God can create the universe and all things in it but cannot believe He made baptism to actually pour out his grace on us and wash us of sin?

    You said, “If it is done, then why does the catholic church teach us to keep doing, and doing, and doing.”

    Because faith without works is DEAD. Christ himself told us baptism is necessary. He told us to keep the commandments to have eternal life. He said those who do not eat his flesh and drink his blood will not have eternal life. It’s in the Bible. But none of these done outside of the realm of faith do anything… and that is the clear teaching of the Catholic Church. You cannot have faith without works and you cannot have works without faith and still be saved. It’s in the Bible. CLEARLY, we must do more than just sit there believing! You even said yourself that if we don’t have fruit, we won’t be saved. That makes fruit (works) necessary! Baptism, communion, etc. give us grace that produces fruit in our loves. God also tells us we must LOVE one another to have eternal life. He tells us love is greater than faith. So, yes… as a Catholic, we keep loving, keep repenting, keep seeking to obey God… of course, we are never done doing just as we are never done have faith and growing in that faith. If you stop doing, then your faith will be worthless… It says it plain as day in Scripture. Have you read Matthew 25?

    You said, “Amber, how can you believe that God can create the universe and all things in it but cannot preserve His Word? You limit God if you do not believe He is able to preserve His Word. If you do not believe that the perfect, inerrant Word of God in the Bible exists today, then no wonder you will take what man says over God’s Word.”

    I never said such a thing. I do believe this… in it’s entirety. But that’s not what I’m asking you. I’m saying, how do you know that the books that were included in Scripture, were supposed to be there? Which chapter and verse in each book says, “This book is inspired by the Holy Spirit and free from all error”? Which Scripture gives us a list of the books to be included? How do we know who wrote the book of Mark? The Bible didn’t just fall out of the sky all in one piece! God didn’t yell down and say, “HERE! These are the books to be included!” The Bible did not exist until the fourth century… and it was decided in a council (Hippo) by the Catholic Church which books were inspired and inerrant and which weren’t. Before the Bible, how did Christians know what to believe? How did they know the “plan of salvation” before they ever even HAD Bibles?

  44. Amber says:

    1. Forbidding priests to marry.
    2. The selling of indulgences.
    3. The priest is the only one who can absolve sins
    4. Praying to Mary
    5. Executing Non believers
    6. Sacraments required for salvation
    7. Purgatory
    8. Infant Baptism
    9. Why you believe that you don’t know for sure that you are going to heaven.

    I would like to know your Biblical basis for these practices.

    All of these I can give responses for… but they would take pages upon pages of typing… I will pick a few and others I can give you links to my blog as I have answered some of these questions already in my own posts. I can and will try to answer each one… but let me ask you, will it make any difference? Will you really READ what I’m saying or will I be wasting my time?

  45. maranatha777p says:

    Baptism IS necessary AFTER salvation. But the catholic church teaches it is necessary FOR salvation.

    “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.” Pg. 320, #1257

    How can I misterpret your catechism? It says that baptism is necessary FOR salvation.

    “The Church does not know of any other means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude…” Pg. 320, #1257

    Sounds like baptism needed FOR salvation again.

    “Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, and are incorporated into the Church…” Pg. 312, #1213

    Baptism does not free us from sin, Christ does.

    As for the Word of God and the books contained therein, again, I stress that the God of all Creation is able to preserve His Words in a book.

    (Deu 31:24-26) And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, (24) That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, (25) Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. (26)

    (Isa 30:8) Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

    God’s Word does not expire – it does not become outdated – it is forever and ever. I was excited to find that there are seven occurrences in Scripture that contain the words “word, for ever”! Seven symbolizes perfection – God’s perfect number! The Word is perfect.

    (2Sa 7:25) And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.

    (Psa 105:8) He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.

    (Psa 119:89) LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

    (Psa 119:160) Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

    (Isa 40:8) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

    (1 Pe 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    (1 Pe 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

    (Jer 30:2) Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

    (Jer 36:2) Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.

    (Num 11:23) And the LORD said unto Moses, Is the LORD’S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

    (Isa 55:11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

    (Jer 1:12) Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

    (Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    (Jer 51:60) So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil that should come upon Babylon, even all these words that are written against Babylon.

    (Rev 1:1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    (Rev 1:11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    (Rev 22:18-19) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (18) And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. (18)

    God said that holy men were inspired by the Holy Spirit (2 Pet 1:21). These same men put God’s words in books. I know what you are boiling your statements down to, Amber. You will try to point out that it was the catholic church who brought us the bible and you couldn’t be further from the truth. God would not instill this responsibility to a “church” who would change his words through magisteriums and traditions.

    (Rom 1:25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

  46. maranatha777p says:

    Amber, at this point in time, I will no longer approve any of your posts.

    I will say to you what I had to say to another. It doesn’t matter what I write to you; I doubt that you listen. You are on most dangerous ground. Since you seem intent on substituting faith in the Catholic Church for faith in the Lord of Glory, you likewise will deny in practice His Person.

    The Scripture warns a believer to “avoid foolish disputes…”. (Titus 3:9). Your writings all boil down to making catholic doctrine scriptural. Nicholas listed teachings of the catholic church and they are totally without scriptural substance. You can debate them and support them at your own blog. But I will not use my blog to confuse any searching catholic who has had enough of the burdens the catholic church places on the poor shoulders of its members.

    Unless you repent of rationalizations to uphold the traditions that deny the absolute truth of the Lord’s written Word, then your comments won’t be approved.

    Christ Jesus the Lord declared, “…the scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35) There I stand!

  47. Amber,

    You and anyone else here is welcome to swing by my blog and discuss Catholic and anti-Catholic issues with me. As long as the discussion remains civil, I would love to learn from you and to share thoughts on these subjects. I actually just posted a bold article about the Catholic Inquisition. I would love to have your comments and thoughts.

    Thanks.

  48. Lee says:

    The Catholics tend to believe that they are “The Church” because they call themselves “The Church” which is the same way that the Pharisees, Sadducees and the Scribes elevated themselves to a position of authority that was not given to them by God. I am a member of “The Church” because I was born again into that body of believers and I will only be justified by my faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus on the cross. It is not because my name is on the roll of some organized denomination or that I was physically born into some religion by family ties. It will not be because I was dipped, sprinkled or immersed in a tub of water. I am a member of the Church established by Jesus the Christ because I have turned my life over to Him and I am completely dependent on Him for the cleansing of my sins and my salvation.

    I am not a protestant because I have never protested the Catholic Church or belonged to that idolatrous religion in any way nor has the assembly of believers to which I am a member. Contrary to popular belief not all Baptists are protestants only those that descended from the Anabaptists are. You can be sure that Catholicism is not “The Church” or the way to Christ and salvation because the door is too wide.

    Matthew 7:14
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Jesus Christ is the gate and the Word of God is the path unto eternal life. The only way that you can follow the path to salvation is by faith and the gate to that faith is through Jesus Christ and Him alone. If you believe that you can do anything to earn salvation including the joining of a church, the act of baptism, the doing of some good deed, or the words or acts of some priest then you are completely lost and undone.

    Every church and every denomination or religion that I know of includes some form of idolatry in their worship, their facilities or in their daily works because they are all made up of sinful creatures. That is why we so desperately need the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ for our hope and salvation. That is not to say that everyone is an idolater because there are born again believers scattered all across the world who belong to a variety of churches and denominations. But if you pray to a symbol whether it be a cross, a crucifix or a cow you are an idolater. If you pray to any other person or by any other name than the Lord Jesus Christ then you are an idolater. If you hold any man’s word above the Word of God then you are an idolater. If you receive any other spirit (and there are many) than the Holy Spirit of God then you are an idolater.

    How can you tell that a spirit is the Holy Spirit? Everything that the Holy Spirit teaches you will agree with every written Word of God as found in the Holy Bible. The Holy Spirit will always point you to Christ Jesus and to no other. If any teaching is contrary to the Bible then it is a lie and it comes from the father of lies. Any guidance that leads to anyone or any name other than Christ is false and is Antichrist. There is no middle ground and there is no gray area here, you are either a born again believer or you are a lost idolater.

    I pray that not only Catholics but also all people that are walking the idolatrous path toward destruction will read this blog and see their need to turn their life completely over to Christ for the salvation of their souls. Thank you Sister Kate and I praise God for your testimony and your witness.

  49. Jerry Bouey says:

    Funny how some Catholics that have posted here and on other boards and blogs online will state that there is nothing in Catholicism that contradicts the Word of God – obviously saying this to give credence and authority to their beliefs. Yet in the very next breath they will question the inspiration and sufficiency of the Word of God when their beliefs are shown to be in conflict. Hm, can’t have it both ways – either the Bible is true or it isn’t. If it is true (which I fully believe it is), then ANYTHING that contradicts it (such as Catholic doctrines) is false.

    John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

  50. Amber says:

    I never questioned the inspiration or sufficiency of the Word of God. I merely asked how do we KNOW that it is… It’s simply an objective question. I’m not questioning whether or not it IS, but how we know that it is.

    I believe the Word of God to be fully inspired of the Holy Spirit and inerrant… true in every way! I would never say otherwise… and I have never seen any Catholic disagree here either.

    That is something we can agree on and have in common… I hope the fact that I agree here, will allow my comment to be posted.

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